The Phenomenal Dale Murray

If Murray can pitch 300 to 400 innings how many innings can Sutter R3 and Johnny Miljus R5 pitch? There seems to be no shortage of super relievers to pick from. Murray does not seem to be the best bargain to me.

I think Murray gets talked about more than Sutter or Miljus or anyone else because he had so few real life innings and reputation wise was not considered a great reliever. Sutter on the other hand was one of the best relievers ever until the injuries. Miljus is R5 with a decent card but the Murray card is better. So while yes there are many others who can be used as super relievers Murray just stands out and thus has become the poster card.

Bottom line I think Murray is just the easiest example of what many consider a problem. If it worked as I understand Nev said it should where he could pitch 3 straight but should enter that third game at less than full strength I do not think we would have as many complaints as we do. In fact now that Nev has explained it to where I understand it better I wonder if maybe during the transition and subsequent recoding that the logic we ended up with makes it more of a problem.

Thanks for the clarification.

OPS In a 10/10/10/10 park Dale Murray with his -6 hold, which is very valuable for a right handed pitcher, has a .129 OPS and a .251 OPS vs righties. Miljuis is .302 and .353 respectively.

For a comparison of how much Murray kills lefties, Greg Maddux's 11.30 million dollar card has an OPS of .160 vs lefties. So in a division with lefty leaning parks Murray is worth that much more if you get as many innings out of him as people do Maddux.

Against Righties Dale Murray's .251 is a little better than Ed Ruelbach's expensive card and a little better than Sandy Koufax at 10.15 which vs righties at 10/10/10/10h has on OPS of .314

Not taking sides, just trying to understand the debate.

gkhd11a, Are you just trying to point out how good the Murray card is? Granted it is great as one would expect from the highest priced RP only card in the set. If that is your argument you are right on how good it is. I am not sure anyone disputes how good it is. If anyone wants to make a case it is not a good card would like to hear that logic.

Or are you trying to say the card should be priced similar to Maddux since it close in quality and able to get as many or more innings?

Or are you saying something else and I am just missing the point completely?

The whole point of why I started to post was that Nev was questioning why people worried about Dale Murray pitching 300-400 innings and he did not understand it when Ben Tincup or Al McBean is also capable of pitching a lot of innings. Radagast Brown also offered other pitchers as better values in his mind. To believe that, it is my opinion you have either misunderstood the true value and potential of Dale Murray who can play absolutely in any cap league, or you are just playing devil's advocate to detract from the argument by taking a small piece of what Dale Murray does.

Radagast Brown and Nev both offered other pitchers as better potential values and stated that Dale Murray did not seem to be that much of a value. I was just trying to show that at 300 innings that card is worth 10 million, and has a value that is very high, not that the price needs to be changed. I was and am disputing the claim that Dale Murray is not a very special card.

On the price of Dale Murray's card I only care what it is relative to value that can be obtained, I will play with the price the game dictates and adjust to players I think offer the best value, pricing changes always accomplish different value players. It certainly in the right circumstance is worth 5.99 million even with 200 innings and I believe 10 million or more @ 300 innings. What you have to be careful of is you don't take value away from the rest of the staff when you take their innings from them in giving them to Murray

It does seems absurd to me that the very best reliever in the All Time Greats is Dale Murray. Pretty much the same feeling as if Tuffy Rhodes 2001 season was added from the Japan leagues as the all time best hitting season somehow. I would use that card if it had value as well but it detracts from the feeling of all time great players.

As for pitching roles, it is absurd to me that one can make a single pitcher setup, closer, late inning specialist, pitching when behind specialist and every other role and have the computer interpret that as always bring in a given pitcher. But this is what we have and so this is what I do as well.

If we are to allow people to utilize relief cards as they would desire then an optimal strategy would be 3 Dale Murray's and you could start a .50 pitcher pitch one pitch, pull bring in Murray for 4-5 innings second Murray clone for 4-5 innings and rest the other Murray clone to be fresh for tomorrow. For 18 million you could have better than a 43 million dollar starting pitching staff. And if the bullpen logic was adjusted to allow bullpens to be used as desired many players would attempt this.

Wow Charlie, you're either extremely limited in your ability to read and understand properly or just intentionally trying to twist the things I said...most likely that latter...because you twisted (or missed) everything I said...I'll type slower and it might help you.

Actually Charlie...I'm not going to respond to any of it...What I've learned (it's taken me awhile) is that there are many, many times, in all different circumstances, no matter what is said, no matter how it's said, even written in black on white...they'll just see it how they want to see it....most people's minds are closed on a given subject.

I'll just be thankful I don't often come into contact with you here, or in leagues.

I did not offer Johnny Miljus as an example of a better value than Murray, I offered him as an example of someone who can pitch a lot of innings.

I did not offer Johnny Miljus as an example of a better value than Murray, I offered him as an example of someone who can pitch a lot of innings.

Where did I say you said Miljus was a better value, I stated that you offered other pitchers were a better value isn't that what:

Murray does not seem to be the best bargain to me.

means? I did show the stats for Miljuis as a comparison as that is who you offered as a comparison for Dale Murray's other long reliever competition.