Help with Closers-What is the C1-C6 ranking?

Help with Closers-What is the C1-C6 ranking?

Postby alt-r-ego » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:09 am

I have a 2009 team that has 16 saves and 12 blown saves. This is what is holding an excelen team back. My closer is Mike Adams. He has a good card for a big price but no C- rank. Eric O'Flaherty is the same with 5 BS.

I often have this problem. I like to spend my money on starting pitching with ballparks that support the pitcher.

Please help.

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Postby Manofsteel » Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:13 pm

Report your team link from the statistics page you need your team id
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Postby joethejet » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:00 am

Here's a synopsis of the rule:
1. Closer situation: Tying run is at-bat or on base 9+ inning.
2. Count outs recorded before closer situation occurred.
3. When closing situation occurs, the pitcher gets tired on one hit or walk after recording closer outs and noted on his card. N rated pitchers are tired immediately. 0 rated are tired after hit or walk.
4. If the pitcher begins his appearance in a non-closing situation and the game becomes a closer situation, he changes to his closer endurance rating. At that time, reduce his closer endurance by the number of outs he has already recorded. This number cannot be reduced to lower than 0, unless the pitcher's closer endurance is "N".
5. Once the rule is in force for a pitcher it is always in force for that pitcher. In other words, even if the closing situation no longer exists, it does for that pitcher for the purposes of determining his tiredness.
6. Rules don’t affect starter.

In addition, Hal will almost always pull a pitcher in a closing situation if they get tired due to the closing situation.

Hope this helps,

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Postby jayhawk81 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:04 pm

don't understand that answer, what's a C1? a C6? Is an R2/C3 better than a R1/C6?
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Postby gbrookes » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:37 pm

This is my understanding, based on playing the CD rom computer game and from chatting with veterans over the years.

The rule that is quoted IS the rule for the board game. HOWEVER, in the modern computer version, all pitchers - starters, relievers and closers - have a more complex system of endurance and tiring. Also, the effects are more complex than in the board game. The effects also get progressively more acute as a tired pitcher is left in - even after he reaches F0, the tiring effects continue to get worse.

The modern computer system is based on a targeted pitch count for each pitcher in each role (starting, relief or closing). I know this because I have seen (playing the CD Rom game) the target pitch count for an R1/C6 reliever INCREASE DURING THE GAME once the closer situation was reached.

C6 is the best endurance for a closer. C0 is worst - but a reliever without any C rating is actually even worse than C0 if they get caught appearing in closer role.

The tiring effects kick in - somewhat randomly - once the pitcher's tiring factor slips below F9. This tiring factor (below F9) may begin when his actual pitches exceed his target pitch count. Even here, there is some randomness. A starter or reliever (more often a starter) may begin to tire (F8 or lower) even before he reaches his target pitch count, if he is getting "knocked around" - giving up many hits, walks and especially home runs. However, I must stress that this appears quite random to me in actual game experience. Sometimes a pitcher will get knocked around and NOT tire - that is what I mean by randomness.

In my experience, with a good closer (C6), the "knocked around" effect rarely comes into play. if a C6 closer comes in to close out the 9th inning, in my experience he almost never "tires" in that role. He may lose the game by giving up bad hits and walks on die rolls as in the normal course of the game, but he will almost never tire - his endurance factor will remain at F9.

By contrast, a close with an F3 rating or lower MIGHT tire in a closing situation. Again, there is a randomness to this. He might get knocked around and tire, or he might not tire. Either way, he might get the save, or blow the save, based on his card and the die rolls.

If a pitcher is called into the game in a closer situation, but has no C rating, his tiring factor is set immediately to F4, and may decline further from there. In other words, he is immediately tired.

The effect of tiring is very complex. I honestly don't completely understand it, and I don't understand the precise mechanics of the effect or the odds of it occurring. I do know how it works in general terms. Basically, as the tiring factor slips ever downward from F8 to lower ratings, the die rolls get progressively worse for your pitcher. That's about all I can say with certainty. But if you watch the die rolls and game results on the game summaries (available only for the ATG, 2007-2010 sets), you will see what I mean, if you watch the results for a pitcher whose tiring drops down to F4 F2 and then F0, and then progressively worse even after that. You can't miss it.

What I normally do is:
-Have at least 1 pitcher with a C5 or C6 closer factor. I prefer C6.
-Make sure your bullpen has the "right" relievers to match up with your starters. If you have a few "5" endurance factors for starters, you will need a couple or a few R2 or R3 relievers. If your starters are 6 or 7 endurance factors, you can get away with more relievers who are R1.
-I like to have at least one OTHER reliever with a C rating - preferably C3 or better - so that that reliever can help out my main closer - or fill in the role if your main closer has gone too many games in a row.
-Playing the CD Rom game is a huge help, in terms of getting to know the "true" endurance for each starter or reliever. You will find this out by seeing what their target pitch count is. This information is not available any other way, I believe. However, I really do believe that these pitch counts ARE used in the online game. I know this sounds crazy, but I think this is true.

Anyone else want to join in on this question?
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Postby Detroit-Tigers » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:10 pm

[quote:eb8010be25="jayhawk81"]don't understand that answer, what's a C1? a C6? Is an R2/C3 better than a R1/C6?[/quote:eb8010be25]

R2 means regular situations he can go at least 2 innings. C3 means in a closing situation he can regular go 3 outs.
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Postby Mean Dean » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:27 pm

Let me try to confuse the issue. As [b:ab86794e4c]joe[/b:ab86794e4c] mentioned, SOM defines a "closer situation" as when the team has a lead and the tying or winning run is at bat or on base in the 9th inning or later. (Note that this is not the same as the MLB save rule.) If the game is in a closer situation, then the C rating represents the number of outs the pitcher can get before he has a chance to get tired. Once he gets that number of outs, the next hit or walk will make him tired.

Thus, a C1 comes into the 9th inning of a game where his team has a one-run lead (a clear "closer situation"). First player gets a hit; fine, the pitcher is not tired. The pitcher then gets an out. Since he's C1 and he got one out, he's now at risk: He will become tired with the next hit or walk he yields. (As [b:ab86794e4c]Geoff[/b:ab86794e4c] says, there are different degrees of "tired" and their exact definitions are not published in any event, but suffice it to say, the man pitches a lot worse.)

So, you might ask, what's up with the C6; if the closer situation can't arise earlier than the 9th inning, why does the guy need six outs? That brings us to the other part of the rule, which is this: If the pitcher is already in the game, and it becomes a closer situation, the number of outs that he has already recorded in the game is subtracted from his C number. So a C6 is in good position to get 2-inning saves (note to younger players: this is something that actually used to happen.) He comes into the 8th; gets his three outs; the game becomes a closer situation in the 9th; the three outs are subtracted from his C6; he is still C3 and thus able to close out the 9th.

On the other end of the spectrum, consider how this plays out with low C numbers. A C0 pitcher is going to become tired as soon as he gives up a hit or walk in a closer situation. If a pitcher is not a closer at all, he has an "N" closer rating and will become tired as soon as the closer situation occurs.

This should explain why a high C rating is usually quite valuable. However, it is not necessarily the be-all and end-all. If your C2 reliever is a truly great pitcher, then he's not all that likely to give anything up to make himself tired in the first place, and even if he does, perhaps he will pitch better tired than your alternative would pitch fresh. So, like everything else, there are multiple things to consider.
Mean Dean
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